I just had a great conversation with Ryan and Dennis at ATS diesel. They are very interested in working with us to create a transmission along with their co-pilot transmission controller. They will be in contact with me in a couple days about testing their products out. Please refer back to this thread with any questions or complaints you have about products that you have purchased from ATS diesel.
ATS Transmissions
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545-rfe
I would like to introduce myself to all of you on this forum. My name is Clint Cannon and I am the one that heads up my team of dedicated people to design and manufacturer the RFE series transmissions were talking about today. It is very rare that I will post a reply but in this case I wanted to be sure all of you get accurate information about the 545-RFE transmission. I apologize in advance for posting such a long response to your questions. The 545-RFE transmission is a smaller version of the 68-RFE. In 2007 the 68-RFE came out behind the 6.7L Diesel and rocked the performance transmission world so to say. The 545-RFE and 68-RFE share a lot of similarities and in many cases they share the same parts. We were really challenged when this transmission showed up behind the 6.7L Cummins and we never stopped working on addressing the on going challenges of making this transmission hold the torque and HP of the Diesel engine. Today we offer a 68-RFE transmission package that is reliable behind the 6.7L Turbo Diesel that produces power levels in the 900+HP range and the more destructive 1,400FpTq, and we offer a 5 year - 500,000 thousand mile warranty on it. Getting to the point that we can offer an RFE transmission that will hold up to this kind of power and abuse has been a collective effort between electronics, hydraulics, mechanical components and hard part up grades. The complete re-calibration, understanding of how the computer interacts with the non-synchronous operation of the RFE and what hydraulic modification we could do to keep the TCM from basically backwards learning and destroying the transmission was the biggest challenge. This took us almost 5 years to fully develop the technology to keep the RFE alive in high power applications. I am very happy and proud to say we have achieved that. The reason I introduce the 68-RFE to all of you is because this was what we cut our teeth on and it was a hard learning curve! Now I am giving you my promise that ATS will deliver you a 545-RFE transmission package that will not only handle the power of your HEMI trucks but will also give you the drivability comfort features that you like about your late model truck. The 545-RFE transmission packages we have developed for you is basically a 68-RFE transmission with a smaller torque converter, pump, input shaft, different hydraulic and electronic calibration that is calibrated for the gas engine. I want all of you to know this is NOT an experiment or proto type transmission. We are merely using all the heavy components and technology from the last 9 years of testing and development from the 68 and producing what we believe to be the transmission package you have all been waiting for. I also want to note that the Co-Pilot is a key element to making the 545-RFE work properly and live at higher power levels.
Co-Pilot Pressure Controller -
The ATS Co-Pilot commands line pressure and internal clutch timing within the transmission to improve the reliability and the amount of power the 545-RFE transmission and handle. This is more than just a "pressure riser" box like other transmission pressure boxes on the market. The Co-Pilot is a full closed loop computer that monitors the actual line pressure of the transmission and drives the EPC solenoid to the desired line pressure based on actual engine load. As the engine produces power the line pressure of the transmission is increased far above stock to provide additional clamping force to the clutch packs. This increased line pressure increases the transmissions clutch clamping force during the shift as well as after the shift increasing the clutch capacity dramatically. The Dynamic and Static holding capacity of the clutch packs allows the transmission to shift firmer, last much longer and hold increased power levels.
The Co-Pilot has 4 settings that allow the user to adjust the max line pressure that is required to produce the best shift quality. The Down arrow key is the lowest setting which is just a little firmer than stock, the pressure and shift quality goes up as you click the up arrow key. Setting 4 or all the way up provides the maximum pressure and the firmest shift. Stock engines or mildly modified engines work well at the lowest setting, this setting will increase the reliability of your transmission while reducing clutch slip during the shift period. Engines that are heavily modified will require setting 3 or 4, Turbo Charged, Super Charged and Larger Stroker Motors produce much more torque than a normally aspirated engine does. These engines require a much different pressure curve to better match the engines aggressive torque curve, setting 3 and 4 of the Co-Pilot are specially designed for these applications. The Co-Pilot will remember the last setting that was selected so you do not have to change the setting on the box between key cycles. The Co-Pilot is all Plug-N-Play so install is easy, in some applications you will have to tap into the throttle valve on the top of the engine. All install instructions and hardware are provided in the kit making this an easy install typically taking less than an hour.
ATS 545-RFE packages are designed and tested to handle the abuse of towing, racing, superchargers, turbos or nitrous. Performance clutch packs (and more of them) are added to increase the 545-RFEs holding capacity. Line pressure is increased to provide more clamping force on the clutches increasing their life.
Torque Converter options are Billet Single Disc or Billet Triplelok Torque Converter. We offer both these converters in many different stall speeds. We manufacture every aspect of the converter here in house. If there is not a stall speed that you see we offer we will custom build a billet stator vane design that will get you where you want to be.
The 545-RFE transmission was originally designed to be very inexpensive to manufacture. This approach forced the original designers to cut corners in size and quality of materials that could be used. On a positive note, the technology that is utilized in the transmission is leading edge; this advanced technology has forced ATS to completely rethink how to modify and control the transmission so that it can still perform and remain reliable while modifying the engine to have extreme power levels over stock.
ATS has developed a combined technology utilizing recalibration of the hydraulic circuits inside the transmission, including revamped accumulator rates, reprogrammed clutch to clutch apply and release timing, and line pressure rise rate to better match the torque output of the engine. These enhancements, along with other key hydraulic modifications which ATS makes, must be done to ensure the clutch packs have the correct apply and release rates when commanded on or off. As well, the transmission hard parts have many limiting weaknesses which do not allow for increased power levels over stock. Specifically, the light duty shafts, hubs, Planetary assembly and Over Drive Clutch pack. These hard part weaknesses must be addressed.
Some of the areas that are addressed by ATS to complete the performance transmission upgrade package are listed below, starting at the front of the transmission working towards the back.
Because of the combined combination of technologies we have used to redesign this transmission to handle extreme power levels we now offer the 545-RFE for many application.
The torque converter regulator valve has been redesigned to prevent over pressure and ballooning of the converter, along with regulating minimum converter charge for proper cooling and lubrication of the transmission gear set. This redesign also eliminates the common problematic valve and bore ware that is usually the first cause of high mileage transmission failure and inadequate TCC apply.
The main pressure regulator circuit is modified to enable a broader range of pressure that can be commanded from the ATS Co-Pilot transmission controller. This allows the pump to lower line pressure when the engine is at low loads and more responsively raise pressure above stock to react with increased engine torque and horsepower levels.
Rotating Clutch Drum Assembly and Clutch Packs
Clutch modifications are generally one of the most impactive and important items that can be upgraded in any transmission. In the case of the 545-RFE transmission, there is little room for additional clutches so modifications must be done to pressure plates providing increased clutch surfaces. We have increased the clutch apply areas to gain additional torque capacity. The clutch surface area are listed below.
*The Under Drive (Forward) clutch pack surface area is increased by 21%, using single sided clutch plates.
*The Over Drive clutch pack surface area is increased by 27%, this allows for better clutch control when overdrive is used at higher power levels.
*The 2C clutch pack surface area is increased by 34%, using double sided frictions.
*The 4C clutch pack surface area is increased by 34%, using double sided frictions.
The weak mechanical low one-way clutch is upgraded with a stronger roller clutch design. The factory clutch not only has a very weak torque capacity, but it also fails from lack of proper lubrication. The stronger roller clutch designed by ATS prevents the higher mileage failure associated with the factory clutch. Although the new "cam and roller" low roller clutch design is much stronger it still has imitations; the Co-Pilot (Forced Lock up version) transmission controller contains a direct function to route power around the mechanical clutch when extreme power levels are sensed. This eliminates the failure with breaking the low roller and the back of the transmission case where the low roller bolts into the case. This happened under a 4 wheel boosted launch in most cases. You will read more about this in the Co-Pilot (Lock-up box only). Note, the Co-Pilot Lite pressure box does not provide this feature.
The valve body is considered the nervous system of the transmission; the valve body is responsible for converting the electrical signals from the TCM into hydraulic actions. The 545-RFE uses a non-synchronous, clutch-to-clutch design. This means that the shifts from gear to gear must be timed perfectly thereby releasing and applying a friction clutch to achieve a flawless shift. Because of the sensitivity of the hydraulic circuits, we heavily modified many areas of the valve body. Hydraulic oil flow is ported to certain clutch packs where additional pressure is needed. The large valve body sections have a severe problem with cross leaks, especially during higher line pressure situations. Valve body castings that have been in service for thousands of miles and heat cycles “season” the aluminum making it more stable but this generally means the halves are not flat. We re-machine these surfaces to ensure they are flat providing hydraulic oil tracks sealing against the separator plate reducing or eliminating detrimental cross leaks. The accumulator piston seals have been redesigned to ensure hydraulic pressure integrity. The Over Drive Accumulator incorporates our exclusive billet triple seal designed to relieve excessive pressure that builds in the OD clutch pack while at higher line pressures. This modification prevents the issue of dragging the OD clutch is certain situations. Our OD accumulator also allows us to maintain the correct CVI (Clutch volume index) in the TCM so the computer does not drag the OD clutch over time. The accumulator plate is made of high-grade material to compensate for the additional pressure that the accumulator pistons and springs exert during heavy power situations.
We offer a Billet input shaft as an optional upgrade, it is made from 300M billet material. This is a must when our TripleLoc converter is installed and the converter is commanded to lock up under full power.
Case and Pan:
The main transmission case does not require a lot of conditioning aside from a few small hydraulic modifications to allow for proper oil flow. The case is sealed using an epoxy base sealer to inhibit oxidation and corrosion caused by nasty road conditions. At higher power levels the transmission case does need to be strengthened. This is a simple fix that is taken care of with the optional heavy-duty trans brace and transmission pan, which was designed in part to act as a girdle, thus eliminating the flex in the case. The large over sized pan also provides for an additional 5 quarts of ATF allowing the transmission to run cooler.
This is a basic over view of how we have redesigned the 545-RFE transmission for extreme use. There are many options available that can be purchased separately or all together. Out goal is to offer a transmission package that will hold up to the higher power levels of a modified HEMI regardless of how you get there. Super Chargers, Nitrous, Turbo Charged and Stroker engines or any of these applications is what we live for. I hope this has been helpful. I look forward to your questions and hope we can help however we can and thank you all for the opportunity!
Clint Cannon
I would like to introduce myself to all of you on this forum. My name is Clint Cannon and I am the one that heads up my team of dedicated people to design and manufacturer the RFE series transmissions were talking about today. It is very rare that I will post a reply but in this case I wanted to be sure all of you get accurate information about the 545-RFE transmission. I apologize in advance for posting such a long response to your questions. The 545-RFE transmission is a smaller version of the 68-RFE. In 2007 the 68-RFE came out behind the 6.7L Diesel and rocked the performance transmission world so to say. The 545-RFE and 68-RFE share a lot of similarities and in many cases they share the same parts. We were really challenged when this transmission showed up behind the 6.7L Cummins and we never stopped working on addressing the on going challenges of making this transmission hold the torque and HP of the Diesel engine. Today we offer a 68-RFE transmission package that is reliable behind the 6.7L Turbo Diesel that produces power levels in the 900+HP range and the more destructive 1,400FpTq, and we offer a 5 year - 500,000 thousand mile warranty on it. Getting to the point that we can offer an RFE transmission that will hold up to this kind of power and abuse has been a collective effort between electronics, hydraulics, mechanical components and hard part up grades. The complete re-calibration, understanding of how the computer interacts with the non-synchronous operation of the RFE and what hydraulic modification we could do to keep the TCM from basically backwards learning and destroying the transmission was the biggest challenge. This took us almost 5 years to fully develop the technology to keep the RFE alive in high power applications. I am very happy and proud to say we have achieved that. The reason I introduce the 68-RFE to all of you is because this was what we cut our teeth on and it was a hard learning curve! Now I am giving you my promise that ATS will deliver you a 545-RFE transmission package that will not only handle the power of your HEMI trucks but will also give you the drivability comfort features that you like about your late model truck. The 545-RFE transmission packages we have developed for you is basically a 68-RFE transmission with a smaller torque converter, pump, input shaft, different hydraulic and electronic calibration that is calibrated for the gas engine. I want all of you to know this is NOT an experiment or proto type transmission. We are merely using all the heavy components and technology from the last 9 years of testing and development from the 68 and producing what we believe to be the transmission package you have all been waiting for. I also want to note that the Co-Pilot is a key element to making the 545-RFE work properly and live at higher power levels.
Co-Pilot Pressure Controller -
The ATS Co-Pilot commands line pressure and internal clutch timing within the transmission to improve the reliability and the amount of power the 545-RFE transmission and handle. This is more than just a "pressure riser" box like other transmission pressure boxes on the market. The Co-Pilot is a full closed loop computer that monitors the actual line pressure of the transmission and drives the EPC solenoid to the desired line pressure based on actual engine load. As the engine produces power the line pressure of the transmission is increased far above stock to provide additional clamping force to the clutch packs. This increased line pressure increases the transmissions clutch clamping force during the shift as well as after the shift increasing the clutch capacity dramatically. The Dynamic and Static holding capacity of the clutch packs allows the transmission to shift firmer, last much longer and hold increased power levels.
The Co-Pilot has 4 settings that allow the user to adjust the max line pressure that is required to produce the best shift quality. The Down arrow key is the lowest setting which is just a little firmer than stock, the pressure and shift quality goes up as you click the up arrow key. Setting 4 or all the way up provides the maximum pressure and the firmest shift. Stock engines or mildly modified engines work well at the lowest setting, this setting will increase the reliability of your transmission while reducing clutch slip during the shift period. Engines that are heavily modified will require setting 3 or 4, Turbo Charged, Super Charged and Larger Stroker Motors produce much more torque than a normally aspirated engine does. These engines require a much different pressure curve to better match the engines aggressive torque curve, setting 3 and 4 of the Co-Pilot are specially designed for these applications. The Co-Pilot will remember the last setting that was selected so you do not have to change the setting on the box between key cycles. The Co-Pilot is all Plug-N-Play so install is easy, in some applications you will have to tap into the throttle valve on the top of the engine. All install instructions and hardware are provided in the kit making this an easy install typically taking less than an hour.
ATS 545-RFE packages are designed and tested to handle the abuse of towing, racing, superchargers, turbos or nitrous. Performance clutch packs (and more of them) are added to increase the 545-RFEs holding capacity. Line pressure is increased to provide more clamping force on the clutches increasing their life.
Torque Converter options are Billet Single Disc or Billet Triplelok Torque Converter. We offer both these converters in many different stall speeds. We manufacture every aspect of the converter here in house. If there is not a stall speed that you see we offer we will custom build a billet stator vane design that will get you where you want to be.
The 545-RFE transmission was originally designed to be very inexpensive to manufacture. This approach forced the original designers to cut corners in size and quality of materials that could be used. On a positive note, the technology that is utilized in the transmission is leading edge; this advanced technology has forced ATS to completely rethink how to modify and control the transmission so that it can still perform and remain reliable while modifying the engine to have extreme power levels over stock.
ATS has developed a combined technology utilizing recalibration of the hydraulic circuits inside the transmission, including revamped accumulator rates, reprogrammed clutch to clutch apply and release timing, and line pressure rise rate to better match the torque output of the engine. These enhancements, along with other key hydraulic modifications which ATS makes, must be done to ensure the clutch packs have the correct apply and release rates when commanded on or off. As well, the transmission hard parts have many limiting weaknesses which do not allow for increased power levels over stock. Specifically, the light duty shafts, hubs, Planetary assembly and Over Drive Clutch pack. These hard part weaknesses must be addressed.
Some of the areas that are addressed by ATS to complete the performance transmission upgrade package are listed below, starting at the front of the transmission working towards the back.
Because of the combined combination of technologies we have used to redesign this transmission to handle extreme power levels we now offer the 545-RFE for many application.
The torque converter regulator valve has been redesigned to prevent over pressure and ballooning of the converter, along with regulating minimum converter charge for proper cooling and lubrication of the transmission gear set. This redesign also eliminates the common problematic valve and bore ware that is usually the first cause of high mileage transmission failure and inadequate TCC apply.
The main pressure regulator circuit is modified to enable a broader range of pressure that can be commanded from the ATS Co-Pilot transmission controller. This allows the pump to lower line pressure when the engine is at low loads and more responsively raise pressure above stock to react with increased engine torque and horsepower levels.
Rotating Clutch Drum Assembly and Clutch Packs
Clutch modifications are generally one of the most impactive and important items that can be upgraded in any transmission. In the case of the 545-RFE transmission, there is little room for additional clutches so modifications must be done to pressure plates providing increased clutch surfaces. We have increased the clutch apply areas to gain additional torque capacity. The clutch surface area are listed below.
*The Under Drive (Forward) clutch pack surface area is increased by 21%, using single sided clutch plates.
*The Over Drive clutch pack surface area is increased by 27%, this allows for better clutch control when overdrive is used at higher power levels.
*The 2C clutch pack surface area is increased by 34%, using double sided frictions.
*The 4C clutch pack surface area is increased by 34%, using double sided frictions.
The weak mechanical low one-way clutch is upgraded with a stronger roller clutch design. The factory clutch not only has a very weak torque capacity, but it also fails from lack of proper lubrication. The stronger roller clutch designed by ATS prevents the higher mileage failure associated with the factory clutch. Although the new "cam and roller" low roller clutch design is much stronger it still has imitations; the Co-Pilot (Forced Lock up version) transmission controller contains a direct function to route power around the mechanical clutch when extreme power levels are sensed. This eliminates the failure with breaking the low roller and the back of the transmission case where the low roller bolts into the case. This happened under a 4 wheel boosted launch in most cases. You will read more about this in the Co-Pilot (Lock-up box only). Note, the Co-Pilot Lite pressure box does not provide this feature.
The valve body is considered the nervous system of the transmission; the valve body is responsible for converting the electrical signals from the TCM into hydraulic actions. The 545-RFE uses a non-synchronous, clutch-to-clutch design. This means that the shifts from gear to gear must be timed perfectly thereby releasing and applying a friction clutch to achieve a flawless shift. Because of the sensitivity of the hydraulic circuits, we heavily modified many areas of the valve body. Hydraulic oil flow is ported to certain clutch packs where additional pressure is needed. The large valve body sections have a severe problem with cross leaks, especially during higher line pressure situations. Valve body castings that have been in service for thousands of miles and heat cycles “season” the aluminum making it more stable but this generally means the halves are not flat. We re-machine these surfaces to ensure they are flat providing hydraulic oil tracks sealing against the separator plate reducing or eliminating detrimental cross leaks. The accumulator piston seals have been redesigned to ensure hydraulic pressure integrity. The Over Drive Accumulator incorporates our exclusive billet triple seal designed to relieve excessive pressure that builds in the OD clutch pack while at higher line pressures. This modification prevents the issue of dragging the OD clutch is certain situations. Our OD accumulator also allows us to maintain the correct CVI (Clutch volume index) in the TCM so the computer does not drag the OD clutch over time. The accumulator plate is made of high-grade material to compensate for the additional pressure that the accumulator pistons and springs exert during heavy power situations.
We offer a Billet input shaft as an optional upgrade, it is made from 300M billet material. This is a must when our TripleLoc converter is installed and the converter is commanded to lock up under full power.
Case and Pan:
The main transmission case does not require a lot of conditioning aside from a few small hydraulic modifications to allow for proper oil flow. The case is sealed using an epoxy base sealer to inhibit oxidation and corrosion caused by nasty road conditions. At higher power levels the transmission case does need to be strengthened. This is a simple fix that is taken care of with the optional heavy-duty trans brace and transmission pan, which was designed in part to act as a girdle, thus eliminating the flex in the case. The large over sized pan also provides for an additional 5 quarts of ATF allowing the transmission to run cooler.
This is a basic over view of how we have redesigned the 545-RFE transmission for extreme use. There are many options available that can be purchased separately or all together. Out goal is to offer a transmission package that will hold up to the higher power levels of a modified HEMI regardless of how you get there. Super Chargers, Nitrous, Turbo Charged and Stroker engines or any of these applications is what we live for. I hope this has been helpful. I look forward to your questions and hope we can help however we can and thank you all for the opportunity!
Clint Cannon
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1,517 Posts
Welcome aboard Clint. This is a much needed, and long over due upgrade. We appreciate ATS's dedication to supporting our passion, Hemi Trucks. I'm sure by your write up, you've gotten a lot of our attention. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out. Thanks again, and good job on all the R&D.
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19,751 Posts
Welcome to the Hemi Truck Club Clint, as well as your team at ATS Diesel. :welcome-0005a:
Thanks Clint for introducing yourself and putting out all of that great info. :thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
Would have taken me weeks to explain all that.... :lol:
Thanks Clint for introducing yourself and putting out all of that great info. :thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
Would have taken me weeks to explain all that.... :lol:
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19,751 Posts
Clint definitely answered why the price of the trans is a little high. There's allot that has to be done to make a strong 545rfe trans as well as addressing the tcm problems. :thumb::thumb::thumb:
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20,323 Posts
Welcome to the forum.
"ATS will deliver you a 545-RFE transmission package that will not only handle the power of your HEMI trucks."
What's the price for the high horsepower package?
"ATS will deliver you a 545-RFE transmission package that will not only handle the power of your HEMI trucks."
What's the price for the high horsepower package?
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19,751 Posts
Thanks Denis. :thumb::thumb::thumb:
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19,751 Posts
This is the biggest problem with our 545s. A really good explanation on what has been done to the ATS 545rfe trans and Copilot to combat this main problem would be highly appreciated. Down shifting (wide open throttle) from 50mph into 2c.
Here's my vid of my 03 downshifting into 2c at 48-50mph on the dyno with the overdrive turned off. Hitting the rev limiter in 2c, then in 3rd with the speed governor and rev limiter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGu4XaqbQC0
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20,323 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the stage 4 ATS 545rfe for 2wd package is $5564+$500 s/h+$1000 core.
$7,000 to bullet proof your 545rfe..
Considering engine is $10k
Boost, pick your favor $7,500
API turn key trans swaps $10- $13,000
Imo, looks like it is in line with the other heavy mods our trucks have. Now if it doesn't hold up its another matter. Mark's turbo motor ought to put it to the test. Obviously I've gone a different route, but I still find a bullet proof 545rfe interesting. Good luck.
$7,000 to bullet proof your 545rfe..
Considering engine is $10k
Boost, pick your favor $7,500
API turn key trans swaps $10- $13,000
Imo, looks like it is in line with the other heavy mods our trucks have. Now if it doesn't hold up its another matter. Mark's turbo motor ought to put it to the test. Obviously I've gone a different route, but I still find a bullet proof 545rfe interesting. Good luck.
Joined
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3 Posts
Ghost
First thing I need to do is clarify what the Co-Pilot Lite can and can not do. This is the box that is best suited for a normally aspirated engine. The Co-Pilot Lite is a pressure box which means it only controls internal transmission pressure. It can not control the timing of a shift or the timing of the torque converter clutch. It can control the shift quality/ firmness of the shift and it has some control over the CVIs that the TCM uses to time “”on going and off going” clutch packs.
When the Co-Pilot Lite is installed the TCM is still in control of when the transmission shifts up or down and when the converter clutch is engaged etc. so the Co-Pilot Lite basically over rides the pressure control and links it to actual engine load so we can better match the internal pressure of the transmission to the torque of the engine and of course command it much higher than the TCM is capable of doing.
Now I want to tell you about the full Co-Pilot with forced Lock-up control. This is the transmission controller that is more suited for a forced induced engine. Engines that are Turbo Charger, Super Charged and in some cases large displacement stroker engines make enough torque to utilize early forced lock-up. The full lock-up Co-pilot is a very dynamic transmission controller. It takes 100% control over transmission pressure, Lock-up apply timing, Lock-up quality, CVI control and Low One way clutch over ride. The partial lock up that the factory uses to apply the converter clutch is also removed so the TCC on rate can be matched to the engine torque being produced at the time of apply.
I wanted to share this information with you so I can explain why you’re experiencing the high RPM problem when you make a forced down shift. Your forced induction engines are making enough torque that you’re blowing through the fluid coupling of the torque converter. When you smash on the throttle peddle the TCM commands a forced down shift that would be the correct calibration for an engine that does not produce the kind of torque/power that your engine is making! The factory TCM will never have the converter applied during an up or down shift at heavy throttle. In your case when the TCM makes the forced down shift you not only dropping a gear or two but you also have a fluid coupling that your blowing through causing your excessive high RPM. We had this exact same problem on the 68-RFE when on a highly modified Diesel. The extreme torque pushes through the fluid coupling of the converter and you’re in the exact same boat, your way past the torque curve of the engine. When we have the Co-Pilot in the system we control the TCC based on engine load. As soon as the engine is producing the adequate torque/power needed the converter clutch is forced on removing all slip from the converter which lowers the engine RPM drastically channeling 100% of the power to the converter clutch!
Now, this is where things start getting more expensive and parts start breaking! A single disc converter does not have enough torque capacity to handle the power of a forced induced engine so you are now forced to run a Triple Disc Converter (ATS TripleLok Converter) is a must. Here is a link to one of our other TripleLok converters so you have an idea what it looks like inside, I will find a picture of the actual Hemi TripleLok in a bit.
http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/productdetail.asp?p=3029303104
Once you have the converter commanded on from the Co-Pilot and you have a converter that will not slip than you have to deal with the input shaft. A Billet input is a must or you will explode the factory input. Now that all this has taken place you will have 100% of you power going to the transmission. As long as all the other internal hard parts, Clutch packs, planets, drums, hydraulic up graded etc. are upgraded in the transmission you will have a transmission that will do what your wanting!
Here’s the deal, I have not completed the calibration for the gas Full lock-up Co-pilot yet. In reality it does not need much but I do not currently have the data I need to build the TCC apply curve or TCC application rate for a forced induction gas engine yet. I will need some data from you big horse power guys to build the calibration and I am confident this set up will get you exactly what your looking for! I would love to get my hands on a truck for a few days to get some real time testing or data from. If you know someone in the Denver area or care to take a trip to Denver were open for it. I hope this helps, and look forward to hearing from all of you.
Clint
First thing I need to do is clarify what the Co-Pilot Lite can and can not do. This is the box that is best suited for a normally aspirated engine. The Co-Pilot Lite is a pressure box which means it only controls internal transmission pressure. It can not control the timing of a shift or the timing of the torque converter clutch. It can control the shift quality/ firmness of the shift and it has some control over the CVIs that the TCM uses to time “”on going and off going” clutch packs.
When the Co-Pilot Lite is installed the TCM is still in control of when the transmission shifts up or down and when the converter clutch is engaged etc. so the Co-Pilot Lite basically over rides the pressure control and links it to actual engine load so we can better match the internal pressure of the transmission to the torque of the engine and of course command it much higher than the TCM is capable of doing.
Now I want to tell you about the full Co-Pilot with forced Lock-up control. This is the transmission controller that is more suited for a forced induced engine. Engines that are Turbo Charger, Super Charged and in some cases large displacement stroker engines make enough torque to utilize early forced lock-up. The full lock-up Co-pilot is a very dynamic transmission controller. It takes 100% control over transmission pressure, Lock-up apply timing, Lock-up quality, CVI control and Low One way clutch over ride. The partial lock up that the factory uses to apply the converter clutch is also removed so the TCC on rate can be matched to the engine torque being produced at the time of apply.
I wanted to share this information with you so I can explain why you’re experiencing the high RPM problem when you make a forced down shift. Your forced induction engines are making enough torque that you’re blowing through the fluid coupling of the torque converter. When you smash on the throttle peddle the TCM commands a forced down shift that would be the correct calibration for an engine that does not produce the kind of torque/power that your engine is making! The factory TCM will never have the converter applied during an up or down shift at heavy throttle. In your case when the TCM makes the forced down shift you not only dropping a gear or two but you also have a fluid coupling that your blowing through causing your excessive high RPM. We had this exact same problem on the 68-RFE when on a highly modified Diesel. The extreme torque pushes through the fluid coupling of the converter and you’re in the exact same boat, your way past the torque curve of the engine. When we have the Co-Pilot in the system we control the TCC based on engine load. As soon as the engine is producing the adequate torque/power needed the converter clutch is forced on removing all slip from the converter which lowers the engine RPM drastically channeling 100% of the power to the converter clutch!
Now, this is where things start getting more expensive and parts start breaking! A single disc converter does not have enough torque capacity to handle the power of a forced induced engine so you are now forced to run a Triple Disc Converter (ATS TripleLok Converter) is a must. Here is a link to one of our other TripleLok converters so you have an idea what it looks like inside, I will find a picture of the actual Hemi TripleLok in a bit.
http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/productdetail.asp?p=3029303104
Once you have the converter commanded on from the Co-Pilot and you have a converter that will not slip than you have to deal with the input shaft. A Billet input is a must or you will explode the factory input. Now that all this has taken place you will have 100% of you power going to the transmission. As long as all the other internal hard parts, Clutch packs, planets, drums, hydraulic up graded etc. are upgraded in the transmission you will have a transmission that will do what your wanting!
Here’s the deal, I have not completed the calibration for the gas Full lock-up Co-pilot yet. In reality it does not need much but I do not currently have the data I need to build the TCC apply curve or TCC application rate for a forced induction gas engine yet. I will need some data from you big horse power guys to build the calibration and I am confident this set up will get you exactly what your looking for! I would love to get my hands on a truck for a few days to get some real time testing or data from. If you know someone in the Denver area or care to take a trip to Denver were open for it. I hope this helps, and look forward to hearing from all of you.
Clint
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19,751 Posts
Thanks Clint for explaining both CoPilots and the awesome info once again.:thumb::thumb::thumb:
But, you still haven't explained what ATS has done about our basic question about the 2nd prime kick problem in burning out the od clutch pack. Add in locking up the torque converter in 2nd prime and the od clutches will be fried even quicker. We're looking more to the question of what have you done to the ud/od drum to make the od clutches hold. We understand more pressure and clutch timing. But, that alone will not save the od clutches.
But, you still haven't explained what ATS has done about our basic question about the 2nd prime kick problem in burning out the od clutch pack. Add in locking up the torque converter in 2nd prime and the od clutches will be fried even quicker. We're looking more to the question of what have you done to the ud/od drum to make the od clutches hold. We understand more pressure and clutch timing. But, that alone will not save the od clutches.
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2,650 Posts
Ya, he did answer that in the first long post back a page.....
Rotating Clutch Drum Assembly and Clutch Packs
Clutch modifications are generally one of the most impactive and important items that can be upgraded in any transmission. In the case of the 545-RFE transmission, there is little room for additional clutches so modifications must be done to pressure plates providing increased clutch surfaces. We have increased the clutch apply areas to gain additional torque capacity. The clutch surface area are listed below.
*The Under Drive (Forward) clutch pack surface area is increased by 21%, using single sided clutch plates.
*The Over Drive clutch pack surface area is increased by 27%, this allows for better clutch control when overdrive is used at higher power levels.
*The 2C clutch pack surface area is increased by 34%, using double sided frictions.
*The 4C clutch pack surface area is increased by 34%, using double sided frictions.
The weak mechanical low one-way clutch is upgraded with a stronger roller clutch design. The factory clutch not only has a very weak torque capacity, but it also fails from lack of proper lubrication. The stronger roller clutch designed by ATS prevents the higher mileage failure associated with the factory clutch. Although the new "cam and roller" low roller clutch design is much stronger it still has imitations; the Co-Pilot (Forced Lock up version) transmission controller contains a direct function to route power around the mechanical clutch when extreme power levels are sensed. This eliminates the failure with breaking the low roller and the back of the transmission case where the low roller bolts into the case. This happened under a 4 wheel boosted launch in most cases. You will read more about this in the Co-Pilot (Lock-up box only). Note, the Co-Pilot Lite pressure box does not provide this feature.
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I did hear this same quote from Sharadon, and you know how that went... I'm not convince that the od clutch problem is fixed yet. Especially if ATS is using single sided (thin) clutches in the od. I hope the od clutches aren't Red Eagle. Add a locked up torque converter under high power and you'll get something like this...
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19,751 Posts
Clint, what's the od clutch hub clamping travel? The reason why I ask, that's one of the problems with the od clutch hub. There's not enough travel, especially if the clutches are a little worn.
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2,650 Posts
Imo the sharadon clutches didn't have the same opportunity to survive. Sharadon did not have full control of the transmission like the copilot will. The line pressure with the copilot will also be higher. At this point everything is here say until some real world testing is done. I'm optimistic for you guys that want to stay with a 545rfe that this could be your solution. It's definitely the best effort to date on getting a built 545rfe to hold.I did hear this same quote from Sharadon, and you know how that went... I'm not convince that the od clutch problem is fixed yet. Especially if ATS is using single sided (thin) clutches in the od. I hope the od clutches aren't Red Eagle. Add a locked up torque converter under high power and you'll get something like this...
![Image]()
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18,376 Posts
We will see what it can take soon as Mark is going again. That turbo will test that trans out first pull that's for sure I just hope he has experience pulling it out over and over.
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19,751 Posts
I agree with you 200%! I've heard so many complaints about 2nd prime frying the od clutches. Someone had to play "Devils Advocate".:devil: This is a vary real problem that anyone with a slightly modded Hemi Ram has had to deal with.
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