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Proud Canadian
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My dad has a 2011 1500 Hemi with 120K miles and it has had the tick for quite a while. It just recently started to stumble under load and I took it for a drive and under load i could definitely tell it was missing. I checked the codes and it is throwing a code for cylinder #3 misfire.

I am down an arm at the moment (shoulder surgery) so I'm not able to get in there enough to pull the rocker cover, although I strongly suspect it will just confirm what I am already thinking, which is that it is cam and lifter time. I will be able to tear into it in a few weeks and confirm the issue, and I was looking for some info on a few things.

Which cylinders are part of the MDS system, and are these cylinders the ones that get their lobes wiped out?

Are there any aftermarket MDS cams that are priced comparable to the factory cam? from the dealer a factory replacement cam will be $300 USD in my hands, but if there is an aftermarket cam that will provide a little more torque on its own (no tuning) that will work with MDS and cost close to the same then I would order that for him instead.

Any recommendations on lifters? I will be replacing all 16 while i am in there, obviously. I am not too keen on getting lifters from the dealer, mainly because they are 54 bucks each. Are any of the aftermarket replacement lifters any good? For example the Enginetech lifters on rockauto. just under 800 bucks after tax for a set of lifters at the dealer isn't very appealing. My dad is in his 70s and doesn't beat on the truck, and it is bone stock so it doesn't need any fancy goodies, oem grade parts are sufficient.

I'm not trying to overspend on parts for him but at the same time I don't want to have to tear his truck apart a second time. I was poking around the engine bay earlier today and it is a lot less user friendly than my 04. but then again it isn't gutted either.

Any advice on a cam&lifter choice? When I googled cam&lifter packages I saw a complete set on Amazon for a low price, but when it is a cam, lifters, head/timing cover/valve cover/exhaust manifold/intake manifold gasket sets, and head bolts all for 700 bucks...yeah I can't see that being a good gamble over a matter of a few hundred bucks. Saving money is one thing, being cheap is another.

thoughts?
 

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MMX has a NTR "no tune required" cam with a little more lift/duration using OEM springs/pushrods/MDS lifters. You're going to want to pull oil pump and clean out pan on a severe failure ensuring no debris are into VVT solenoid. That typically requires a new short block when particulate make their way into bearings.

Anything else will require a tune. The OEM cam is the problem, they also had some lifter quality issues pre-2016 before the latest German AD revision.

Mine was failing around 115k miles, luckily I was putting in a big (billet tool steel) cam/ported heads anyway.
Low/No pushrod preload caused lash on the ramp and the cheap cast iron shaft with induction hardening failed. All lifter rollers were satisfactory.
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Red Trucker
Joined
280 Posts
My dad has a 2011 1500 Hemi with 120K miles and it has had the tick for quite a while. It just recently started to stumble under load and I took it for a drive and under load i could definitely tell it was missing. I checked the codes and it is throwing a code for cylinder #3 misfire.

I am down an arm at the moment (shoulder surgery) so I'm not able to get in there enough to pull the rocker cover, although I strongly suspect it will just confirm what I am already thinking, which is that it is cam and lifter time. I will be able to tear into it in a few weeks and confirm the issue, and I was looking for some info on a few things.

Which cylinders are part of the MDS system, and are these cylinders the ones that get their lobes wiped out?

Are there any aftermarket MDS cams that are priced comparable to the factory cam? from the dealer a factory replacement cam will be $300 USD in my hands, but if there is an aftermarket cam that will provide a little more torque on its own (no tuning) that will work with MDS and cost close to the same then I would order that for him instead.

Any recommendations on lifters? I will be replacing all 16 while i am in there, obviously. I am not too keen on getting lifters from the dealer, mainly because they are 54 bucks each. Are any of the aftermarket replacement lifters any good? For example the Enginetech lifters on rockauto. just under 800 bucks after tax for a set of lifters at the dealer isn't very appealing. My dad is in his 70s and doesn't beat on the truck, and it is bone stock so it doesn't need any fancy goodies, oem grade parts are sufficient.

I'm not trying to overspend on parts for him but at the same time I don't want to have to tear his truck apart a second time. I was poking around the engine bay earlier today and it is a lot less user friendly than my 04. but then again it isn't gutted either.

Any advice on a cam&lifter choice? When I googled cam&lifter packages I saw a complete set on Amazon for a low price, but when it is a cam, lifters, head/timing cover/valve cover/exhaust manifold/intake manifold gasket sets, and head bolts all for 700 bucks...yeah I can't see that being a good gamble over a matter of a few hundred bucks. Saving money is one thing, being cheap is another.

thoughts?
1, 4, 6 & 7, but it isn't an MDS issue. As stated, it was a run of bad lifters. Everyone likes to point fingers at MDS but this happened to stick shift Challengers those years too lol. Stay away from Enginetech lifters unless you wanna be doing this again. Get the latest revision part number lifters, they seemed to have fixed the problem after 2016 or so. If the cam isn't trashed I'd keep that and roll with fresh lifters. If it is trashed the above suggestion is good, give it a little more pep in the step without requiring the supporting mods to go with it.
 

Cody
Joined
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MMX has a NTR "no tune required" cam with a little more lift/duration using OEM springs/pushrods/MDS lifters. You're going to want to pull oil pump and clean out pan on a severe failure ensuring no debris are into VVT solenoid. That typically requires a new short block when particulate make their way into bearings.

Anything else will require a tune. The OEM cam is the problem, they also had some lifter quality issues pre-2016 before the latest German AD revision.

Mine was failing around 115k miles, luckily I was putting in a big (billet tool steel) cam/ported heads anyway.
Low/No pushrod preload caused lash on the ramp and the cheap cast iron shaft with induction hardening failed. All lifter rollers were satisfactory.
I agree with the cam being the problem. I went through the failure a couple years ago and did tons of research, and most Hemi performance shops also believe the cam is the problem.

Greene Racing also has a cam that doesn't require a custom tune, springs, etc. The Stage 2 low lift cam. It is what I went with on my 2012 and simply added a Diablo inTune i3 to turn off MDS with getting a custom tune in mind for the future at that point. Eventually I did get Greene's custom tune with a few more bolt-ons. 72k miles since and still running great. I also only use Pennzoil Platinum or Ultra Platinum 5w20 since the cam and lifter swap. Most go with "Hellcat" lifters which are just the OEM non-mds lifters. Greene Racing can provide those as well. Though they might be backordered at the moment.

I got the rest of the parts from the dealer; gaskets, timing chain, belt tensioner, water pump, head bolts.
 

Proud Canadian
Joined
208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
MMX has a NTR "no tune required" cam with a little more lift/duration using OEM springs/pushrods/MDS lifters. You're going to want to pull oil pump and clean out pan on a severe failure ensuring no debris are into VVT solenoid. That typically requires a new short block when particulate make their way into bearings.

Anything else will require a tune. The OEM cam is the problem, they also had some lifter quality issues pre-2016 before the latest German AD revision.

Mine was failing around 115k miles, luckily I was putting in a big (billet tool steel) cam/ported heads anyway.
Low/No pushrod preload caused lash on the ramp and the cheap cast iron shaft with induction hardening failed. All lifter rollers were satisfactory.
View attachment 50479

yep there was a lobe on the cam with pitting like that. friggin junk. cylinder 3's intake lobe was wiped, the lifter had to have taken it out, not the other way. I just don't understand how Chrysler put out such junk and then told their customers to shove it even though they acknowledge the manufacturing defects. The other 15 lifters were like new, but the one that went sure shit the bed.

Other than a snapped exhaust bolt on either side, everything was in great shape. Better than expected for 120K miles. The same bolt was broken on both sides, upper bolt on cylinders 7 and 8, the bolts with the heat shield stud on top. Anyone know if that is the usual on the gen 4's? I heard they like to pop manifold bolts but I was surprised two were gone. #8 had an exhaust leak but #7 was still sealing.

Doing that with one arm was a bitch but dad needs his truck!
 
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Once the hardening(shell) over the cast iron cam is exposed the lifter roller will begin stopping momentarily and eventually score and flatten/lock up over time due to RPM creating high temperatures.

This photo shows that the camshaft lobe was beginning to scuff the roller surface. Once the roller seizes, it will eat up the softer cam core quickly.
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Proud Canadian
Joined
208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Once the hardening(shell) over the cast iron cam is exposed the lifter roller will begin stopping momentarily and eventually score and flatten/lock up over time due to RPM creating high temperatures.

This photo shows that the camshaft lobe was beginning to scuff the roller surface. Once the roller seizes, it will eat up the softer cam core quickly.
View attachment 50485

makes sense. but why would it cause the roller to stop?
 

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Camshaft is the driver, at 6000 rpm it's going 360 degrees *50 times per second with essentially a low grit sandpaper spot. Add in the original lash from the pushrod preload and all hell breaks loose in the lifter roller assembly with axial/radial play and chinese tolerances.

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I stay out of this dissuasion now a days FCA burned up two motors on our spintron trying to find the issue.....Lots of internet Lore...99% of it is wrong.

,
 

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Absolutely, this was my case and many others have had the same results. There are a lot of variables in a valvetrain, just stating facts on why my application was failing. Was not lubrication, lifter, and certainly was not oil pressure related. 50+ psi hot oil IDLE pressure with Redline full synthetic.
 

Proud Canadian
Joined
208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
so are guys losing mds lifters as well, or are only the non-mds lifters affected?
 

Proud Canadian
Joined
208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This failure occurs to manual cars and HD trucks not even equipped with MDS. Hemi MDS has been around since '06, VVT was the only major change on the '09+ short blocks.

I was wondering if guys have these failures on the MDS cylinders or not. my dad's was cylinder 3, and most that I have read about were on #3 or #5 so I was curious if the MDS cylinders are affected or not
 

Red Trucker
Joined
280 Posts
This failure occurs to manual cars and HD trucks not even equipped with MDS. Hemi MDS has been around since '06, VVT was the only major change on the '09+ short blocks.
2005, the 300C's and Magnum R/T's had it. My 05 Magnum has an early 2004 build date. MDS was designed into the engine prior to it's mid 2003 release, they just didn't have the electronics to run it properly (needed CAN bus).
I was wondering if guys have these failures on the MDS cylinders or not. my dad's was cylinder 3, and most that I have read about were on #3 or #5 so I was curious if the MDS cylinders are affected or not
D) All of the above. MDS and non-MDS lifters alike. Everyone wants to blame MDS til you ask what cylinder it was and it ends up not being 1, 4, 6 or 7 lol.
 

Proud Canadian
Joined
208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
D) All of the above. MDS and non-MDS lifters alike. Everyone wants to blame MDS til you ask what cylinder it was and it ends up not being 1, 4, 6 or 7 lol.

yeah there was pitting on another lobe as well, plus a few more were starting to show some extra wear. no idea how Chrysler got away with all of it. The number of posts online about it is insane.
 

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2004 GTX
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no idea how Chrysler got away with all of it. The number of posts online about it is insane.
I don't have the time right now to post something in-depth ......But I will say this the 1st project I worked on when I went back to work for Comp cams, was helping FCA engineers with our spintron , logged almost 1800 hours over 6 months. their(FCA/Stellantis) hands are tied , because it's an emissions control issue and well ...........only Trumps EPA was willing to work with them on the complete fix...that was in-till Scott Pruitt(Head of Trump's EPA)had to step down.
 

Proud Canadian
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
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