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Old 05-18-2019, 08:53 PM  
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Engine oiling thoughts?

As we know the gen3 hemi engine feeds oil to the rocker arms down through the push rods to the lifters. I have never liked this arrangement and read that some circle track engines use lifters that reverse this flow to what I'll the more tradition flow pattern. Has anyone done this or even given it any thought? What's your opinion?

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Old 05-18-2019, 11:34 PM  
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Leave well enough alone I can turn 7,000 for over 100,000 so far not gonna reinvent the wheel
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Old 05-19-2019, 02:28 AM  
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Keith, wheres your sense of adventure? And don't you feel a little uneasy about your lifters being filled by oil trickling down a push rod?
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:20 AM  
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Just thinking about it oiling from the top may well be why the hemi has such notoriously low oil pressure at idle and could explain why emergency service vehicle that spend a lot of idle time have so many failures..
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:20 AM  
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This is one of those topics or mods or whatever you choose to call it that the Hemi crowd will be left in the dust on because we as a community are far too skeptical of everything. Granted I've seen our community go through some tough times and get taken advantage of more than once. After a few people who are considered "Hemi gods" post up that they use them and they do work then others will "follow" suit. Be a leader not a follower lol I'm a bit jaded I'll admit because the Hemi guys tend to be very very hard headed However I am VERY proud to be part of the exclusive Hemi crowd regardless of our shortcomings.

Ok so "IF" I can get everyone to drop their guard enough to actually listen or read LOL there is something to be gained for all of us.
As Red Truck pointed out and most know the Hemi oils down the push rod and the lifter relies solely on this oil to stay pumped up and keep zero lash at all times.

In stock form this works OK but I wouldn't say its great for the reasons he pointed out. From a high performance standpoint its not so great at all. Higher spring pressures, more aggressive cam lobes, higher rpm, and the exhaust valve opening against much higher cylinder pressures to name a few.

A lifter is a bit more complex than most think and there is quite a bit of engineering that goes into them. OE Hemi lifters are designed to do an average job and be cost effective due to the shear numbers produced and as most of you know they are failing left and right so something is wrong, bad wrong. If you don't already know the Hellcat lifters are not special except the name is attached. It's the same part number and has been for quite a while and is used as a sales tool. I cringe every time I see someone bragging they have Hellcat lifters because they are the same as any other non MDS lifter and have the same inherent flaw.

There is a solution and a permanent fix to that problem as well as a significant power increase to be had. Johnson lifters makes a lifter for the Hemi that rectifies the oil down issue as well as actually keeping zero lash at all times. First I want to make clear that the Johnson I'm speaking of is NOT the Topline Hylift knock off version. This is the "real" Johnson lifter company and the quality is second to none.

The Johnson lifters use the oil pressure and supply that's in the lifter galley rather than having to wait on the oil coming down the push rod. This way they stay pumped up and actually pump oil up the push rod. They also have one that forces oil to the roller axle as well for higher horsepower applications.

They use a proprietary machining process to maintain extremely efficient control of the bleed down rate. I'll disassemble one and show pics versus the OE. There is a lot more to it but it's just too much for one post. Please note that I'm not slamming the OE lifters as I'm truly amazed at what they can accomplish giving the fact they are being used way beyond their intended purpose.

I'll have to ask for forgiveness for even saying this but if your not sure who Johnson is simply ask an LS guy (they are everywhere it seems) lol. In the LS world the Johnson lifter is the go to lifter and we know how cheap those guys can be These lifters are not cheap but they are far superior to anything out there and can handle 8000+ rpm as well as 185+ spring pressure on the seat and 500 on the nose. Only the guys with T Tek head will prob ever see that spring pressure but they will handle it. You don't have to spin to 8000 to see a gain I'm simply stating the capabilities.

I don't want to make this post too long so I'll answer questions and explain more in another post if anyone is interested. I also have a dyno sheet showing a true apples to apples comparison with just a lifter change. Same car, same engine, same boost, same dyno, same fuel, and for full disclosure the run with Johnson lifters had 3-4 degrees less timing because the dyno fan wasn't working that day so the IAT's were over 200*
I wasn't going to hurt an engine just to make a bigger number as the results were already very obvious. The car went from a 10.4 to a 9.7 backed up by a 9.68 @147 with Johnson lifters. With the car on the track and air across the intercooler we were able to put some timing back in.

Lets get passed the "its just a dumb ole lifter" and "what I have now works just fine" because we as a community will never excel with that type of backwards thinking.

I'm not a big social media guy so not sure if I can just post pics here or if I'll need to use a hosting site. Either way I will try to post what I have asap. Sorry for the long post
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:23 AM  
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Lets see if this works
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File Type: jpg Johnson lifter dyno comparison.jpg (58.7 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Johson lifters.jpg (55.9 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Johson lifters 2.jpg (55.7 KB, 7 views)
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:55 PM  
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Billy, thanks for posting, your input is invaluable. I hope we hear more from you. Are these lifters simply drop in or does the block require modifying? It seems it would be beneficial to restrict some oil flow to the rocker shaft since oil is being feed up through the push rod.
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Old 05-19-2019, 01:37 PM  
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Ok this is some good information to know and deff will be a mod down the road I will do. I did not know that was possible but I did know there was oil pressure down there in the galley. This is a game changer for sure. Deff need to know if there is some mods to be done or bolt in and go type deal?
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:42 PM  
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Thanks Red Truck I love to help so I will gladly offer anything I can to make things easier for others.
These are all drop in lifters and no modification to anything is required except maybe push rod length. A lot of guys run quite a bit of preload and these do not need more than .035
There are actually 4 versions of these lifters. All have forced oil up the push rod and 2 have forced oiling to the axle. It's probably more accurate to say there are 2 models and each model can be had in a short travel version. Confused enough yet because I can keep going LOL The normal travel model has .147 of plunger travel and the the short travel has .058 These are as close to a solid roller as you can get. I actually make a lot of my cams with a solid roller profile lobe but reduce the duration due to zero lash similar to a low lash solid. I'm not sure what the rules are here for advertising so I don't want to get in trouble but I do want to say I'm a dealer for Johnson so when your ready I try to stock them.

I'll disassemble one maybe tomorrow if I can and let you see the difference.

OK sorry but I gotta run as John Wick 3 is on in a few and I don't get out much. Hope it's as good as the last 2
Thanks for reading I'll update asap
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Old 05-19-2019, 05:08 PM  
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This is going to be a lot of fun... I met Billy through talking to Mark about HP tuning. Billy is also a HP Tuning dealer. Beside engine builder....
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